Also Simon. You cannot say that enough people telling the same story automatically proves that it is a fact. There are are ton of people who give somewhat similar stories of seeing Big Foot. Does that mean that Big Foot is real? Most reputable biologist would say that Big Foot does not exist. So it is not just because enough people give a similar story that makes it true. There has to be other proof beyond the stories. The Illinois Supreme Court recently ruled that for a number of criminal cases the only evidence, cannot be eye witness testimony. Even judges recognize how faulty eye witness testimony can be in convicting someone of a notorious crime.
Richard Oliver
JoinedPosts by Richard Oliver
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. I am not going to do this with you. You say I have straw man arguments and use the definition to prove your point. And if I argue with you, you just would bring back that same definition. I do the exact same thing to you and you can't understand the point. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence by itself, it cannot prove something when that is the only evidence you have.
I never said that your experiences were not valid as to what you have come to a conclusion about Witnesses and Watchtower. My point was everyone has different experiences and unless it is an actual fact, all it is, is your personal experience. You want to take other people's subjective experiences away from them because they don't line up exactly with yours.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Simon. I agree with you if there is a lot of the same stories it can be compelling evidence. But there is a difference between compelling circumstantial evidence and compelling objective evidence.
In medicine, Pulmonologists treat people who come in and say that they have asthma because they feel like they can't catch their breath like their buddy, who has asthma can't. So that patient, may honestly feel that he has asthma because of the way he feels and the way he has heard his friend talk about his asthma. But the doctor won't just take the patient's word for it, and say "Well you feel you have asthma so you have asthma." No the doctor looks at the patient's subjective symptoms but also looks to measure objective symptoms, so he runs diagnostic tests to prove what the patient feels is in fact asthma or is not. If the tests come back that the patient doesn't have asthma, guess what the patient would not be diagnosed with asthma. Does the diagnosis negate the way that the patient feels in his daily activity? No, the patient still feels the same way, even though the objective tests prove that he doesn't have asthma. So what is my point. There is a difference between subjective feelings and objective facts. We all have subjective feelings that no one can take away from us, but objective things have to be proven by actual facts and data.
Feelings have a number of factors that will adjust how an event will affect a person. And two people who go through the same event doesn't always see it in the same way or the same light. It is the acceptance that we don't view matters in the same way is what is key.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. I never said that my personal experience is proof of anything other than my personal experience and how I view Witnesses and Watchtower. Again there are plenty of things that I wish Watchtower did not say or do or believe. But you want to condemn an entire group of people because of what occurred to you. What occurred to you may not have occurred to anyone else. People may not view it in the same way as you do. But you want to say that they are wrong because they don't agree with you. Watchtower and JWs do the exact same thing. So either you are better than them and accept that people have different views than you and their experiences make them see things differently or your no better than the thing that you rail against.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. You love to quote vocabulary definitions. Here is one for you:
anecdotal evidence
nounnon-scientific observations or studies, which do notprovide proof but may assist research efforts
and
Something anecdotal has to do with anecdotes — little stories.Anecdotal evidence is based on hearsay rather than hard facts. People like to share stories about things that happened to them, or that they heard about, to make a point. That kind of talk is anecdotal: based on small, personal accounts.
anecdotal evidence is not real proof of a fact.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Well Outlaw. You talk about that is my evidence. Your evidence is non-existant as well. Again this is a perspective thing. I have my opinion. You have your opinion. Do I think that you have reasons to your opinion? Yes, I do. But you also have to believe that I have reasons to my own opinion as well.
I would tell people I loved male actors all the time but they would play it off in the same way that straight guys would say they love them too.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Do I wish that I could have a husband and be a witness? I think that would be a factor for me to go back to being a witness. I personally view those things that Paul highlighted as not inheriting the kingdom only applies to the Anointed and not to all Christians. But I know that, no matter what I want, Watchtower is not going to change their opinion. But I also feel that you don't have to be a witness at the point of Armageddon but that Jehovah is the only judge that matters at that time. Do I believe in a lot of the other tenants of Witnesses? I do. But I can't be a witness if I want to have the love of another man in my life, so I live as close to being a witness as possible except for this one thing.
That is what drew me here to this site. I wanted to know what the actual policy changes are for witnesses so that I could live as close to their standard as possible, but since I can't be one, there would be things that I miss in their policies and thinking.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
Outlaw. That maybe so but I know for a fact that the people I had told I was gay in confidence were the only people who knew. At that time, people in the hall would talk to me about girls and other things that indicated that they had no idea that I was gay. Again, I am not saying that this is the same experience for everyone. I can only speak intelligently about my experience as a gay man who was a Witness.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
I had told Elders, COs and other people that I would rather not say. I told some family members and chose not to tell others. I told some people in my halls and chose not to tell others. In the gay community this is not all that uncommon. I have plenty of gay friends who never were witnesses or don't have religious family members, who they have never come out too. Coming out is a very personal and private matter for every gay person and they have to tell the people who they want and not tell the people they don't want to.
I have known openly gay witnesses, actually a number of them. They have had their struggles with feelings of self-worth and desires to leave the JWs. Some have left for a time, some have left for good, some have stayed. I know I left for a while went back and then left again. But issues with self-worth and self-hatred is a common struggle in the gay community, even for gay people who were not brought up religious.
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130
Not a sympathizer
by Richard Oliver ini think everyone here is under the impression that i am a watchtower sympathizer, i am not.
i just like facts and when people say things, which are their opinions but that facts point out as not being true, than that is when i get so motivated to make a comment.
i have read posts here, listened to six screens and read jwsurvey and seen things that people say, which are opinion, but pass them off as fact.. there are legitimate things that people on here and former jws have concerns over without manipulating what is said or trying to pass off opinion as a fact.
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Richard Oliver
I am not trying to get into a discussion or an argument about homosexuality and Witnesses. No matter what you say, I won't feel that Witnesses as a whole are homophobic. Do I believe that they think that it is a sin and you can't be a witness in good standing and practicing homosexual activities? Yes, that is a pure fact.
Now for myself, as a gay man, my personal view of homophobia may be different than people on here. Everyone has their own definition of homophobia, either if they are gay or straight. I view homophobia as the verbal or physical assault of gay people because of their sexual desires. Actively working against the equal treatment of gay people in society, not in religion, but in society. Preventing them from achieving the same rights and privileges as straight people. So my view of it is, voting against or protesting gay marriage, the physical assault of gay people, hurling of gay slurs against gay people.
Never have I seen Witnesses, as a whole or even a majority of people, do anything that I would consider as homophobic. Do a lot of Witnesses not like gay people? Probably. But not liking gay people doesn't make them homophobic in my view. Again my view of homophobia is probably different from others. Some may view my definition as too lax while others view it as to strict. That is each persons opinion.
Have I heard bad things come out of Witnesses mouths about gay people? I have. In my experience is that a minority over a majority of the instances? In my experience it is. Have I been hurt by people's comments about gay people? Of course, even by some high-ranking leaders from Witnesses.
I also really don't like it when people bring up comments from Watchtower publications prior to about 1975, when it comes to gay people. It diminishes the reality that most of society viewed gay people in the same light. I even know that the DSM didn't take out Homosexuality from their diagnostic list of mental illnesses till about mid-1970s. I think when people use those old publications to claim that Watchtower is so homophobic, minimizes the fact that gay people struggled in society as a whole up to that point and even beyond that.